February 8, 2008

  • Biblical
    Eschatology Revisted

    A New Look at Daniel 2

    I have been contemplating for months how to really move forward on revealing
    some information that I’ve come up with during a time of deep research into
    Biblical prophecy early last year. I have not been satisfied with most of the
    interpretations that are out there from one end of the spectrum to the other
    simply because there seems (to me) that there were just too many loose ends for
    me to feel comfortable with things as they have been explained on a number of
    fronts at least in the more historical sense of studying biblical eschatology.
    Often it would seem that there’s a good idea someone has come up with and then
    somehow, the same person goes off into left field and things stop making sense.

    I think there is a reason for this in that the times were not ready to be
    understood and perhaps they aren’t now but in the interest of informing folks
    of what I’ve found, it would be a good way perhaps of doing one more “check
    out” of the data because even as it is, there is so much to tell now that it
    looks like it might be a blog series if it goes all the way to the end of that
    study. Saying that, while I’m certainly not saying that everything that I’m
    going to say is correct, I will say that it is making more sense now.

    Lest someone think that I’m going to tell you some really weird stuff, actually
    the whole matter seems more reasonable than it ever has. In fact, for those who
    have some understanding of eschatology, there should be a great deal of it that
    will be familiar yet its almost as if one is looking at what we’ve all known
    before but in a different light. For those who have slightly different
    interpretations, I’ve even found ways that the Lord has made it so that even
    some of these things are true but not exclusively so.  It is too early to
    explain that thoroughly so that will have to await a better time. So that we
    get there sooner, I should begin right away.

    Let’s start with Nebuchadnezzar’s statue in Daniel 2…

    I start here because it was where I started. I had learned that Islamic
    eschatology actually believes that the stone that was cut without hands is the
    arrival of their religion and they believe that they are the final answer from
    Allah to become a worldwide kingdom for him. Biblically speaking, that is
    simply wishful thinking since the whole matter is taken out of context and
    something really important was overlooked. As I looked closer I wondered if I
    hadn’t stumbled on the Rosetta Stone of biblical prophecy. Here’s the passage
    where Daniel interprets the king’s dream…

    You, O king, were looking and behold, there was
    a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary
    splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. The
    head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver,
    its belly and its thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron
    and partly of clay. You continued looking until a stone was cut out without
    hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them.
    Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all
    at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and
    the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found But the stone that
    struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

    This was the dream; now we will tell its
    interpretation before the king.

    You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the
    kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; and wherever the sons of men
    dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them
    into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of
    gold.

    After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, …then another third
    kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.

    Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes
    and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and
    break all these in pieces.

    In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron,
    it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron,
    inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. As the toes of the feet
    were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be
    strong and part of it will be brittle. And in that you saw the iron mixed with
    common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they
    will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.

    In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will
    never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it
    will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure
    forever. Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without
    hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the
    gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the
    future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.
    Daniel 2: 31-45  NASB

    Through the working of God in Daniel to reveal this prophecy, we find one of
    the most remarkable outlines of world history anywhere. Starting with
    Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon, we have
    a road map all the way to when the Lord Himself establishes His kingdom that
    shall never end and will put away all these other kingdoms.

    Historically, it was Babylon, the
    head, that was the first kingdom… then Medo-Persia, the breast and arms of
    silver… then Greece,
    the belly and thighs of bronze… then Rome,
    the legs of iron… then here’s where something interesting happens. Almost
    everyone that I’ve read in the past associates the feet with the legs but that
    is not a strict necessity.

    The feet are distinctly different as they are not pure iron. They are a mixture
    of iron and clay. Also, it is the stone that is made without hands that strikes
    the feet, not the legs. Maybe that’s being picky but it is certainly within
    reasonable limits to consider this.

    If we consider that the “feet” are the “last Gentile world kingdom”, then we
    should pay much more attention to what its characteristics are. Based on the
    description of the legs (iron), here’s what we find out about the feet:

    1.    Iron destroys things so it would stand to reason that the
    feet will have elements that will cause destruction.
          Yet the feet are also
    clay/pottery and much weaker and brittle. So portions of this kingdom will be
    as strong
          and destructive as Rome
    (iron) was but other parts of it will be very weak and easily broken.
    2.   When iron is mixed with clay as in a furnace, the iron
    become brittle and loses some of its strength.
    3.   We find that the people of this kingdom will combine with
    one another in the seed of men but will not adhere
          to one another even as iron
    does not combine with pottery. This means that this kingdom’s people will be
          scattered all over the world amongst the peoples of the world yet they will not
    become a part of those nations
          but they will remain to themselves and their own
    “kingdom”.
    4.   It is this last Gentile kingdom that will be destroyed by
    the “stone made without hands” who is none other
          than Jesus Christ Himself
    since it is clearly shown elsewhere that He will reign in such a kingdom.

    Now when we understand from elsewhere in prophecy that He will set up His
    kingdom that will never be destroyed in Jerusalem,
    we have to realize that there is Gentile occupation still there. When we start
    down the trail of historical facts we find that the feet of the statue is none
    other than the Islamic empire that has been around since the 7th century AD.
    Indeed, each one of the Gentile empires have had control of Jerusalem
    and Palestine during their reign.
    Where will Christ return to set up His kingdom? Jerusalem..
    Who will he find there… the final Gentile world empire… that which is based on
    Islam. Take a long look at the history of Islam and you will find the first
    three characteristics fit well enough with it.

    For those who have an extensive recall of biblical eschatology can easily begin
    to make connections between other scripture that will affirm this is what we
    are seeing here. However, there is neither time nor room for exploring all that
    in this post and hopefully we’ll be able to explore it in more detail later.
    Perhaps I can post some charts that have the historical information that
    follows this timeline that we see here in Daniel.

    So, folks, we are living in the end times. Not surprised? Certainly not.
    However, many have misunderstood this passage and have been looking for a
    revived Roman empire. There doesn’t appear to be one.
    The one that followed the Roman Empire, first expressed
    as the western portion in Rome and
    then through Constantinople, the eastern portion, was
    succeeded by that founded by Mohammed. There is more to be said about this
    later.

    The only real surprise for some folks is that we now have a different Gentile
    empire than we’ve been told, one that has to be intensely opposed to the Jewish
    nation and Christians alike. Revelation 12 makes a strong reference to this and
    if we care to see it, we would see that it would happen sometime after Christ's
    ascension. Thus, we have it all in Islam. In effect, it is the fifth and final
    Gentile kingdom.

    This brings us some sobering concerns for the days ahead since all those who go
    through the final days of “a time of tribulation like no other” will be forced
    to take the mark of the Beast which is “the number of his name” or die. It is
    interesting to note that there is a numeric system in Arabic (the language of
    the Koran) that assigns numbers to words or names. It is the Abjad
    system.  For instance, the word “Allah” alone has the numerical value of
    66. There is also a similar system in Hebrew called “Gematria” as well as
    others like the Greek language (isopsephy). The point I’m trying to make here
    is that the main language of this final Gentile empire would “ascribe numbers
    for names”. Fascinating, isn’t it? It is not yet clear here where 666 comes
    from in Revelation 13 but “the number of his name” makes a positive association
    in the quest of firmly determining these things as facts.

    There is more... and as usual, I don't like a lot of speculation. When I find something like this... we truly have some interesting data points in acquiring an understanding of what the Lord was telling us in these passages.  Mr.Vee

Comments (9)

  • A stone made without hands, is Jesus. we are stones also, but we have been fashioned by men's hands to believe what we were taught, not what the spirit teaches which has no hands.   Oh that we could be made into a stone without hands too.   Molded and shaped by the word of God, which is spirit.   Remember when they built a alter they couldn't use a hammer on the stones to shape them.   

    The next big thing that's going to happen next is a great shaking Heb. 12 26-27     26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

     27And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made( fashioned with hands), that those things which cannot be shaken may remain ( made without hands, fashioned by the spirit ).    The reason for the shaking is to remove all things that can be moved, so that those that can't be moved may remain.    This plainly tells you that the cream of the crop isn't going to be raptured out first.   This shaking could also be the stone hitting the feet.

  • personally I think the number thing isn't straight on either. I have read numeous commentaries concerning the subject.  one commentary I read stated that the number written in greek looks similiar to the word Allah??? interesting thought.

  • Thank you all for visiting!

    Eddie... re: stone made w/o hands, is Jesus and on... Yes, brother, you've got that right!
    re: the great shaking... But Eddie, you forgot verse 28... that's the best part!

    Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire.
    Heb 12:28 (NASB)

    Praise God! This fact is repeated often in the Psalms, as we trust in the Lord.

    Grind... I have a confession. I've given up on commentaries. I used to have a lot of them. Now I don't have one on my bookshelves any more except a few I keep as collector's items (meaning that they are very old). And, trust me, I have a lot of books (understatement). Too often (for me) they either don't address what I want to know or its obvious they are guessing themselves and all it takes for me to just read the scriptures a bit deeper and if I let them say what they want to say, all my questions get answered eventually in a way that is corroborated multiple ways.

    Now about 666... it could be what you are relating is very true. An odd thing that I've noticed about the Lord is that He often will use "word plays", "types and antitypes" of things to come, and other very clever ways of "hinting out loud" what's going to come. For me, though, the historical facts that back up what He is telling us in Daniel 2 is saying is so powerful, that by itself, removes the need to look for strange things like that. Its like this. God said how things would go. If we believe He controls how history will progress, then it would not be a shocker to think that whatever replaced the Roman Empire (even the Eastern portion under Constantinople) in Palestine and Jerusalem would be the "fifth and last Gentile empire". What is really neat here is that God just doesn't stop there, he even describes the type of empire it will be and if you take some time with it, you'll begin to see how the descriptions really are on target. And that's not all but I'll save that for another time...

    Thanks all, Mr.Vee

  • I've never heard this interpretation before, but it sounds right on to me. Wow...

  • Mr Vee  What would consist as shaking?   I would think death, famine, pestilences, diseases, and poverty for starters, and we have all this in the church, so they haven't moved into that kingdom that can't be moved, if they have , they sure haven't plugged into it.   The shaking Heb. 12 26-27, there will be some that won't be move by death, etc, because they can't be touched.

  • Hi, Eddie,

    Ok. I think I understand what you are trying to say here. However, the passage itself refers back to Haggai 2.
    It is there where I would look to define what is truly meant by "shaking" since this is the term used by God Himself through the prophet Haggai. In those verses (especially vss. 21-22), we will find that "shaking" is defined as...

    1. overthrowing thrones of kingdoms and destroying their power
    2. overthrowing their chariots and their riders, the horses with their riders, and everyone else by the sword of another.

    This sounds all the world to me like the Second Coming of Christ where indeed all this will occur.

    Now will there be a shaking prior to this? You bet there will be... in the forms you rightly describe but specifically when the end comes for man messing around with ruling the world, this is the ultimate of "shaking" and even Satan will be bound for 1000 years. It is the kingdom that He establishes that will not be shaken and if we are believers, we are part of it whether we happen to be alive at the time or had died previously. There is so much here to discuss since it has to do with what we see now and what will be later on yet there is no really good way to convey all that "at once". That's why I am "building a case" concerning Biblical prophecy based on Biblical evidence of what God has really told us (and not what we imagine to happen or what someone tells us we must think) and then we can build our confidence on the sure Word of God. I've listened far too long to folks who did not have the entire picture down with regards to what the Bible says about these things. If you watch carefully, I will make links and crosslinks to everything to establish it all so that we can be confident about this. I have sensed a burden to make an end to the confusion because I don't believe that the Bible is confused about these things and I believe we shouldn't be either. So I am doing something about it. Does that make sense to you? Mr.Vee

  • This shaking may be the second coming of Christ.

  • Eddie, yes, I think you're right. Thanks for visiting and bringing that up. Mr.Vee

  • There is another interesting prophecy but it is not of our group but still interesting to be aware of.  Islam believes that the 12th Imam will come out with a new Holy Book, what they'll call a christian book.  They believe this book will not have mistakes in it like the bible which states God had a begotten son, Jesus Christ.

    Now just a thought here.  If the 12th Imam had a new book he claimed from God and not tainted by man and the books in the book were the same as the bible, 66 books, and a man, 6, would be like 666 wouldn't it?

    Another thing to put starch in your shorts.  Islam also has another interesting belief which is part of this same Islamic prophecy.

    They believe that Jesus Christ will come to them as a man and state that God sent him back to earth to fix all the misunderstanding that he was God's begotten son and that God has no son.

    They believe the 12th Imam will ask this man who claims he is Jesus Christ, really the False Prophet, to pray for the Islamic armys before some military campain.  This false prophet will then tell the 12th Imam that he is unworthy and the 12th Imam should lead the prayer.

    Your article is fascinating....

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