September 5, 2007

  • Creation: The Sequence

    Sometimes I run out of time reading and posting comments on other sites
    but the following was again a product of something that came out of
    that effort that I’d like to share with you in this post.

    One person challenged another in the following manner…

    I would like to hear a creationist explain how the sequence of events
    recorded in Genesis actually took place in the literal, 3-dimensional
    universe that we now know exists
    .

    Taking this as an opportunity to answer this person’s question, I will
    proceed.  Since the challenge asked for a sequence, I will respond to
    it as a list proceeding from first to last from the Creation account in
    Genesis.

    First, some comments about the Creation account… Genesis 1 is a high
    level description of the Creation event. It is not crammed with
    detailed scientific information. It is like a “bulleted list” of things
    that God did in sequence in His creative act of the heavens and earth.

    Now we will be examining the text in a literal manner yet be aware that
    I will be supplying additional comments that have
    a reasonable chance of being true as a direct result of a literal
    interpretation of the text. Some of the basic literal statements in the
    text lead to larger principles that would also go into effect and are
    in our natural world today. Yet none of what I have added is claimed to
    be authoritative as scripture, it is just what seems logical that would
    follow from such an action on God’s part.


    1.    Gen 1:1 – A summary statement of what will be described.

           a.    When- In the beginning,
           b.    Who – God
           c.    Action – created
           d.    How – (out of nothing) Heb. bara
          
    e.    What – the heavens and the earth.

    2.    Gen 1:2 – Start of follow up statements of the summary statement

          a.    Initial conditions before God’s first action–
                 i.    Things were formless and void and there was no light. The Earth
    is particularly mentioned since no 
                       other heavenly bodies yet existed
    until later.  (So much for the Big Bang theory…)
         
    b.    First stage initial conditions
                 i.    By necessity, God gives the Earth dimensionality in order for it
    to have a “surface”. For the earth
                       to have dimensionality, the universe
    that contains it must have dimensionality.
                      
    1.    Three dimensional space was created.
                 
    ii.    God makes water at this time for it was mentioned with darkness over it and the Spirit of God
                        moved over it.
                      
    1.    Water is a basic constituent of life.

    3.    Gen 1:3 – Second stage initial conditions

           a.    God creates the principle of “light” and gave it a name as a principle.
                  i.    The principle that causes light is the foundation of all biological and chemical processes.
                       1.    Light is produced by electrons moving to one valence shell of an
    atom to another, either
                              releasing or accepting a photon. This is
    essentially a basic model for all chemical and physical
                              effects related
    to the combinations of materials… (very simplified)
                  ii.    Light is called “good”

    4.    Gen 1:4-5 – Third Stage Initial Conditions – Distinctions and Differentiations Begin

           a.  God creates the principle of distinction between
    “light” and darkness and the exclusive nature of light
                verses darkness.
    Light represents “day”, darkness represents “night”.
          
    b   God creates the more widespread principle of variation in energy levels and the principle of energy flow.
          
    c.    Day and night cycles are started without solar light input.
          
    d.    The first mention of time except for “the beginning”.

    5.    Genesis 1:5 – End of 1st Day – Initial Conditions Complete


    6.    Gen 1:6-8 – Earth’s Development Begins with the Creation of its Atmosphere and Environment

           a.    Gen 1:6 – The atmosphere is created.
           b.    Gen 1:7 – The Hydrological Cycle is formed
                  i.    The principle of water vapor and its ability to form clouds were developed and waters on the earth
                       were separated from it.
                  ii.    God called the atmosphere “heaven”

    7.    Gen 1:8 – End of 2nd Day – Atmosphere and Hydrological Cycle Creation Complete


    8.    Gen 1:9-10 – 2nd Stage of Earth’s Development – Creation of Land

           a.    Gen 1:9 – The principle of water saturation, surface tension and water flow is created
                  i.    Land is formed and is called “dry” or absence of large quantities of water on it.
                  ii.    Water is caused to gather together into droplets; the principle
    of liquid surface tension is created. 
                        Rain is now possible to be formed
    out of water vapor. Yet “rain” doesn’t actually happen until
                        much  later.
                 
    iii.    Water flows downward allowing land to appear (logical necessity)
                      
    1.    The land is “exposed” not created.
                      
    2.    The process is described as the waters are “gathered”, not that the land was raised.
                      
    3.    Perhaps the principle of gravity may have been initiated at this time.
                       4.    Subterranean water “containment” created to hold the excess water.
                              Underground acquifers formed.  See Gen 7:11.
           b.    Gen 1:10 – God gives names to bodies of land and bodies of water.
                  i.    These were called “good”

    9.    Gen 1:11-12 – 3rd Stage of Earth’s Development – Creation of Vegetation

          
    a.    Gen 1:11 – First living items created – plant growth and propagation initiated.
                 
    i.    Vegetation is formed from the earth, that will yield seed and fruit appropriate to each variety.
                  ii.    Plants to subsist on water, earth, and light. The principle of
    photosynthesis is established and
                        utilized. Note the words “green
    plants” in Gen 1:30

    10.    Gen 1:13 – The End of the 3rd Day


    11.    Gen 1:14-18 – The Creation of Celestial Bodies

             a.    God creates celestial bodies and turns over the long term maintenance of light production to them.
                    i.    Celestial bodies that will be “light producers” will be scattered across the vast dimensionality of
                          space.
                        
    1.    These celestial bodies will at this point determine “day” and “night”.
                    ii.    They will be signs and time indicators.
                   
    iii.    The principle of nuclear fusion is created and utilized.
                   
    iv.    Second instance that time is mentioned
                         1.    longer periods are now included i.e. seasons and years.
                  v.    Their principle function is to give light on the earth,
             b.    God creates two specific celestial bodies, one to give light in
    the day and one to give light at night.
                    i.   Creation of the sun and moon.
                   
    ii.    Latest point of creation of the Earth’s rotational spin and its revolving around the sun.
                    iii.    The Earth’s magnetic field is now created from its rotational
    spin causing the earth to be
                          protected from the effects of the sun’s
    nuclear fusion processes.

    12.    Gen 1:19 – The End of the 4th Day


    13.    Gen 1:20-22 – The Creation of Living Creatures

             a.    Aquatic Creatures created to inhabit the seas.
             b.    Birds are created to fly in the atmosphere.
                    i.    First mention of the principle of aerodynamics and flight.
             c.    Aquatic creatures and Birds to follow the propagational pattern
    set by the creation of plants.
                    They will reproduce after their own kind.

    14.    Gen 1:23 – The End of the 5th Day


    15.    Gen 1:24-30 – The Creation of Living Creatures (continued)

             a.    Beasts of the earth were created; Insects and similar forms of life created and propagate
                   after their own kind.
            
    b.   Man is created to superintend all the living creatures.
                 
    i.    Man created in God’s image – nothing less will do for the job.
                       1.    God’s image is shown in both male and female forms of man.
                 
    ii.    Man will also propagate after his own kind.
                 
    iii.    Man is given plants with their fruit and trees with their fruit as food.
            
    c.    All beasts of the earth and birds are given green plants for food.

    16.    Gen 1:31  The End of the 6th Day

             a.    The Creation Sequence is complete.  All things completely finished.
             b.    God saw that it was very good. (This means it was “really good”.)

    17.    Gen 2:1-4 -  God was completely done with His work in the Creation.

             a.    He did not rest because He was tired. He rested because the job was done.

    The rest of Genesis 2 goes on to begin to focus in a little
    closer on some particular things that wouldn’t have fit well with the
    material in Chapter 1. It focuses a good deal on God’s work relative to
    particular aspects of His work with man.

    That’s a very interesting sequence. So if you ever want to make a
    “world” and have the ability to do so, that’s the “big picture” of how
    its done.   It is appropriate to note that God starts with the very
    basic things and works toward the complex, just as we might expect any
    good designer to have done.

    Now we might be left with our arguments over how long was a “day”
    (sound familiar?) but much of what was briefly described as implications
    fit well into the reality we know. We would be lost in our efforts to determine whether God meant a
    literal day or not since it is obvious that multitudes of people are
    arguing this way and that. Yet the Bible does not leave us hanging
    without an answer. Yet even this still requires faith.

    God gave us the answer through His Son, Jesus Christ who, “in the
    beginning of His ministry” changed water into wine in the Gospel of
    John in Chapter 2. In moments, he created wine in six pots of water
    which had the qualities of fine wine that mystified the headwaiter who
    was an expert in wine selection. Fine wine requires a great amount of
    skill and art to make it and it requires a very long process for it to
    be properly made and Jesus did this in the time it took to raise the
    ladle.  See my posts on “Creation and Fine Wine”.

    Some of us don’t need such confirmation since we believe that God made
    the heavens and the earth in six literal days (as I do) i.e. in the time it would
    take six complete rotations of the earth without John’s account of the
    Miracle at Cana. Yet God conforms to His own requirements when He says
    that “out of the mouth of two witnesses a thing will be established”.

    However, as I’ve said many times before, God requires “faith” from us.
    He wants us to believe what He says. When we don’t, we “fall” just like
    our first parents did and this is the powerful message of the Creation
    and the Fall and its placement so early in the Bible.

    I will make a prediction.  If the Lord tarries, one day science will
    find out the real creation sequence will be exactly as listed in
    Genesis 1 yet because of their commitment to a materialistic mindset,
    they will still reject the truth God has said in Genesis 1.  At that
    point, they will not be able to hide behind what they call “facts”
    because all things besides the time period and whether God exists or
    not will not be the point. It is their basic rejection of God in play
    as it always has been.  God has even told us clearly that those who
    will reject Him will be “evolutionists” and they dishonor themselves by
    making themselves descendants of primordial slime and animals rather
    than created specifically by God.  If you don’t think so, read this…


    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness
    and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
    because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God
    made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His
    invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been
    clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they
    are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor
    Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their
    speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be
    wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible
    God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and
    four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them
    over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies
    would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for
    a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator,
    who is blessed forever. Amen.
      Romans 1:18-25 (NASB)

    The sorry result of this rejection is found later on in Romans 1 and we
    recognize the presence of such activity in these days and we should
    note exactly where it comes from. Mr.Vee

Comments (16)

  • Wow. That’s excellent. I’m copying it to give others at my church. Thanks!!!

  • wow, that was very thorough. thanks

  • Hi veritas_verbatim. Thanks for commenting.

    It makes people look silly when they do that especially when those who are attacked are on the “same team”.

    This is a bit of loaded charge, isn’t it? Shouldn’t you first show that I actually was misreading you? I’m at a loss as to how you could think of us as being on the “same” team when the issue at hand—interpretations of Genesis—is one that we disagree on!

    I’m not really sure what you were trying to get across in the next two paragraphs. I was hoping you might deal with the points I raised concerning your paper. Would you mind doing that? I’d like to know how you can simultaneously believe secular science and the authority of God’s revelation.

    I don’t recall shooting any bullets at you… unless any objection to your writing you define as a bullet!

    Oh, I should also say that the 2nd law didn’t start at the Fall, otherwise in process in which heat is given off would have not existed… no digestion, no friction (imagine sliding everywhere in the Garden of Eden)…

    Keith

  • I second Ben’s comments regarding SLOT.  Also, where is the lantern from day 1?  Also, you didn’t mention the shape of the water on day 1 or that there was no land until day 3.  Also, after the separation of waters on day 2, what did the universe look like?  You also ignored the explicit definition of “day” in Genesis 1.  (Hint: It’s not 24 hours and it’s not figurative.)

  • Excellent breakdown of the events of creation!  I thoroughly enjoyed it!  I’m confused as to some of the response points made above…I thought all the points were answered that could be answered from the scripture, and answered in a way that was very understandable.   Thanks for the post. 

  • Hi, Soccerdad,

    Hey, I’m up for any updates on this if you can substantiate it in scripture. It was really interesting doing it and made me think and this is as much as I could figure out in the time I had.
    Seriously, what would you change? Mr.Vee

  • Soccerdad,

    BTW, are you responding to me or someone else? It seems like you are talking to someone else.
    Who is Ben?

    If you are talking about the “2nd Law”, please justify scripturally where you would put it then.
    That’s what really matters. I’d really like to hear that. The post above is a “work in progress”
    and it was my first stab at it just reading what the scripture says.

    Mr.Vee

  • Hi Mr. HumVee! (Just a very little joke)  “Ben” is “Razzendahcuben”.  SLOT is just normal physics as “Ben” pointed out.  Good post for a first try.  Sorry if I got excited.  I’ve posted about Gen.1 a while back on my site with my Big Ball of Water Theory (I think Humphries published his form of it first).  Where do you think I got the lantern (hint: it’s shuttered)?  What would the shape of things be if the “waters above” were separated from the “waters below”?

    I like your choice of topics.  About time creationist Christians started thinking about Gen. 1!

  • Hi Mr. HumVee! (Just a very little joke)  “Ben” is “Razzendahcuben”.  SLOT is just normal physics as “Ben” pointed out.  Good post for a first try.  Sorry if I got excited.  I’ve posted about Gen.1 a while back on my site with my Big Ball of Water Theory (I think Humphries published his form of it first).  Where do you think I got the lantern (hint: it’s shuttered)?  What would the shape of things be if the “waters above” were separated from the “waters below”?

    I like your choice of topics.  About time creationist Christians started thinking about Gen. 1!

  • Hi, Keith,

    I finally have some time to make a decent response. Ok, where were we? Oh, yes.

    Seriously, I think the Lord has already answered your question pretty thoroughly and proven what I pointed out to you to which you have taken issue. He has done this by remarkably setting up a situation that should teach both you and me something important.

    Did you notice that I had posted what I believed in this post plus what I thought might go along with it, to the best of my knowledge? And I did so for an entirely different reason. Afterwards, you made your comment here and say we interpret Genesis differently and that we disagree.

    If you disagree with me, then logically you cannot believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis. Yet you claim you do. Sir, I’m confused unless, of course, I assume to your benefit you simply did not read anything with any sort of meaningful comprehension. So when I say you misread my article, you have shown us all that you’ve done it twice now. From this, it is reasonable to assume that you didn’t understand the “next two paragraphs” that I wrote you for the same reason.

    How is it then that I have done you any wrong? I merely pointed out that you need to read things again instead of assuming something worse and embarrassing you on your own site (which I really didn’t want to do there nor do here now).

    Now, to your “points”… I actually didn’t see them as points so there wasn’t anything to rebut yet may be a reason to show some issues that seem evident. I saw the first as a flippant excuse for inaction and the second, a clear misreading and taking a quote out of its context. I suppose one can get confused from this so I guess I can understand this. You may disagree and I won’t contest it because it simply doesn’t matter.

    What does matter is that we use our understanding of the Scriptures properly. There are many folks who think “debate” is a Christian method of communicating. I don’t and let me explain. Now we might earnestly discuss a matter to reach a better understanding of things with all channels open for two way dialog (like I encourage on this site), this is not “debate” at least in what seems to be the conventional sense of the word. Debate is a contest where the “winner takes all”. This is not the Lord’s way of doing things as you’ll see if you read this…

    The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. II Timothy 2:24-26 (NASB)

    What I encourage here is “constructive dialog” where everybody wins making it something completely different. Even if other folks do not agree with me, I have achieved what I wanted to accomplish, i.e. we gave the subject some earnest thought and we tested our thinking without threat of being “defeated” or becoming arrogant over our “victories”. After trying both, I much prefer His way of doing things than doing a “debate” because I see that we all have an opportunity to grow in Him by this. There are entirely different results between “debate” and “constructive dialog”. The first is destructive and the second builds everyone up. What Paul said later in II Timothy 3 was true; “holding a form of godliness, although they have denied its power. Avoid such men as these.” Now we are to contend for the faith as well but even the goal of this is “restoration”, not “demolition”.

    This was the thrust of my 3rd paragraph to you. When you made your remarks and claims of my faith being such and so on your site (and now here), you were not seeking “restoration”. I was a vanquished “foe” to you. In reality, this was not so and I didn’t feel that but that is what it seemed for you. Am I your brother in Christ? Should you have not come here and gently asked me about what I meant? Of course, you should have and you know it.

    The second matter in using our understanding of the scriptures properly is that what we learn MUST result in service for Him in an active way. When Paul told us there were people who were “ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth”, he wasn’t just talking about unbelievers in the last days, he was talking about God’s people as well if we take on the characteristics of the unbeliever in our own lives and it defaces God’s purpose for giving us understanding of His word.

    Now just as a “certain person” who commented on your site had prompted this post on Creation and it resulted in a gentle response that attempted to kindly fulfill that request, hopefully I helped that person and myself understand things better. I know it did that for me. The post was intended to help and so is this reply to you. The Lord has taught me a lot and is doing so even now writing this message to you. So the reason that we contemplate things that you claimed we should dismiss in your 2nd paragraph is simply because we want to help. No, we don’t need to think of such things for ourselves alone but life is not about “us”, its not about “me”. We should contemplate these things in order to have a handle on them. Then we can know where we are going (for ourselves) when we attempt to help others by following II Timothy 2:24-26 that we saw above. We should do this because it helps us understand the issues and have confidence that the Lord has a “gentle answer” that gives truth and builds up so. Then we don’t have to get flustered when someone challenges us in a harsh manner. What we know should give us peace inside as we communicate the message of peace to the world. This is what I am doing here now with you as an example.

    In doing this, we often have to keep our perspective when we deal with others who do not understand this especially those who are very adamantly opposed to God and therefore us. It was here you had the most difficulty i.e. not understanding how a Christian could see through the “hideous and blasphemous” things that secular science promotes and see a positive end to it. We should understand clearly that God wins. There is nothing that they can say or do that will put one blot on His character. Have no fear. Say and do what they will, the Lord will come on that white horse with no blots or blemishes on Him and He will defeat them all… at the proper time. So when I say that “they say this or say that”, you need to remember to not fear because what they say and do does not matter in the slightest. If God said that it took six days to make everything then until time is no more, so as it is written so it will be. Yet we are not “off the hook”. We can dismiss their boasts but we cannot dismiss their souls. So we can have confidence that when they tell us something looks “such and so old”, we can remain unruffled when they express their opinions. We can say “this person thinks the world is this or that old” because, truthfully, that is what they think while their opinion is in reality, false.

    Going further, we can also say that how old something appears to be is moot. Yet we can also say that God could have made things look old if He wanted to since we already know that Jesus could make aged wine from water in an instant. So, theoretically, the entire creation could have been made to look any age He wanted yet in truth be made in only six days by God. So we can say, “Praise God, He could have made the earth look a million years old yet create it in only six days.” Why He would do that, I don’t know but I see no issue with just saying “I agree that’s what it looks like to you and I think you are truthfully expressing your opinion yet it actually only took God six days to do it. Isn’t that fascinating that He’s that incredibly knowledgeable and powerful?” As I’ve said to the others, a masterpiece is still a masterpiece and its real value is undiminished by what others say or think. Now this has to be true because He’s deemed you as a masterpiece of His. Your real value is undiminished by what other people say to you and do with you. Why? Because this is what God has said about those who are His. It is incontrovertible as the world being made in six days by Him. This is what you were objecting to and I said that you shouldn’t do that.

    As to attacks on His word and His existence, we only need to go to Romans 9:17 to realize that Pharaoh was created to show God’s glory and power and might. In the same way, these who preach secularism and evolution are the same way. In their case, just like Pharaoh, they are a negative example that God uses to help us understand the true nature of Himself and the world. In the end, God’s words will be right and those who rejected it will suffer loss.

    At this point, I have fully covered the matter in the time I have and encourage you to think on these things. You already are showing to have a great mind BUT with such a gift you must be careful not to misuse nor abuse it. Overall, your post was pretty good and its too bad I couldn’t have told you that earlier. Yet there is something that always catches us especially when we are young, knowledge makes one think more of oneself than they ought. So I offer what I’ve learned. It is much wiser to assume that one knows much less than they ought so they are surprised when they find out they actually knew more… than the other way around.

    Take care, serve Him well, and blessings. Mr.Vee

  • Keith,

    As a separate item…

    Where would you propose to put the time when God put the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics in effect (SLOT) and remain scripturally accurate? I truly would be interested to know what you think on this.
    Mr.Vee

  • Mr. Vee, great post. I enjoyed reading it. Can I copy it for future reference? I am completely with you when you said that one day scientists will found out that Bible sequence is true. I think that God wants to be believed not necessarily proved (proof comes after belief). For me, I was raised in a secular semi-comunist home (I come from ex-Yugoslavia – Croatia), so I always believed in evolution (and funny, in God, or should I say god, too), but when I started reading the Bible it was a matter of belief – not scientific proofs – that led me to Christ. I did have some questions and I still do (questions, not doubts), but the whole thing was settled for me. I didn’t have to wrestle with evolutionary-Big Bang-Old-Earth proofs (btw, before I became a beliver, I was enjoying reading Hawkins). Believing in God was a moral decision (His decision, ups, now you know I’m a Calvinist)!

    In my opinion, evolution is one of the big effective delusions from 2 Thessalonians. God is letting the world that suppress’ the knowledge of Him to believe in lies – and actually find some kind of evidences for their lies. It’s like cheating on the home-IQ test. You get a higher score cause you’re looking at the answers – and deceiving yourself every time (I did this as a boy – and the results still didn’t impress me :) )

    Anyway, great job!

  • Thank you for your visit, BibBlog.

    Sure, you may use it if you remember it was a first pass attempt to try to show how things really flow together logically and shows God had a good plan and process in creation from the beginning. The only stipulation I’d put on using it is if you find something that should be added or changed to the list that makes a logical and clear statement consistent with what the Bible says, please let me know about it so I can update it in the archives for others to be able to see it, too. Ok?

    Croatia? Hmmm… seems I’ve heard of that place now and again since I know several people from there. Everyone of them are great people.

    re: evidence
    You speak well about this. Evidence sometimes is only what people want to believe, not actual facts.

    re: Hawkins
    I’ve read him, too. Sometimes I do that to understand “the man” more than simply understand his opinions.
    Men do not come to the opinions they do without an underlying reason.

    re: a Calvinist…
    Well, that isn’t a problem here nor if you’d been anything else as well. If a man or woman is a student
    of the Bible and earnestly wanting to know His Lord better and can listen as well as share, they are welcome here.

    Thanks again for your comment. It was great having you stop by. Mr.Vee

  • Thanks!

    Re: a Calvinist – I said that as a joke (forgot to put a smiley on the end). I mean, I am a Calvinist – or better to say, I believe that God is sovereign and I am unable to come to Him (or stay in Him) without His work within me.

    I like your blog. I try to do similar in Croatian (http://krscanskibloger.blog.hr), but you are doing a great job!

  • I haven’t read all of this. I copied into a word document so I can take it home and digest it properly, but man! You are awesome! I can see already that you are going to enhance and challenge my thinking which is great! I can also tell that I will definitely get new flow as a result. Thanks so much for the fabulous posts! Peace and blessings.

Post a Comment

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *